Building Brands in Dentistry with Dr. Brad Hughes
Hi, everybody. Welcome to Justin and John Talk Dentistry. Today's a new episode where we have actually a new guest, doctor Brad Hughes, who is with us. And we are going to talk about, a topic that is quite, interesting, like, working for a multilocation. We honestly call it a DSO, and and what does it mean to build a brand?
Jon Rat:Before we start, actually, doctor Yu, do you mind, introducing yourself to our audience?
Dr. Brad Hughes:Yeah. Absolutely. So, doctor Brad Hughes, been in practice for 17 years, currently practice in South Carolina, the founder and CEO of Vision Dental Partners. We're an 8 location group, based out of Indiana. We've got 7 locations in Indiana, one location in South Carolina, which happens to be where I practice.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And, yeah, excited to be here. Looking forward to chatting with you guys.
Jon Rat:Awesome. Maybe we can start actually how did we all meet each other? And I have to say, it's unusual in dentistry, but usual in tech, but we met school in India. And and I think I mean, I will speak for myself, but I know Justin can chime in. Like, I have personally been enjoying all of your thoughts, doctor.
Jon Rat:Like, I think we share the same, point of view, vision, and, direct directness of communication, and the no bullshit. And so, personally, I really enjoyed your your post. I've been commenting a few time. And I think when Justine and I, like, we're like, we need to talk with doctor Yo. We need to do this podcast.
Jon Rat:But that's actually how everything came up to me.
Justin Clements:Yeah. Yeah. No. I think that it was funny. Like, I was just scrolling my LinkedIn feed like I normally do, and it just, like, seeing the topics and then, like, the quality too in which it's recorded.
Justin Clements:I was like, oh, like, this is it's relatable. And I think that's always the thing is, like, how how do you stand out and be relatable to the masses or whoever it is that you're trying to target, which is actually, you know, what we'll be talking about today with you, in regards to, like, branding, and and standing out. But it really is important. Right? And I it stumbled on me.
Justin Clements:And and then once we got to talking, like, I don't know how many times I sent you a message so we could have, like, a one on one call. I was like, hey. We should grab a virtual coffee. And then, like, he'd he'd ghost for a bit, and then I'd be like, hey. The coffee's the coffee's fucked now.
Justin Clements:Like, it's it's super cold. I threw it in the trash. So, like, you can have water or something. An email.
Jon Rat:And
Justin Clements:then and then and then he and then he finally responded. Yeah. So I mean I mean, it's not like he he runs a business and practices dentistry or anything. So but no. You know, again, like, it it was great, and would love to honestly, you know, we've a little bit this week already, John and I have been talking with other dentists around private practices, startups, acquisitions.
Justin Clements:But, you know, there's the other elephant in the room around let's just call it we're gonna say DSO so everybody listens really quick, but then we wanna quickly break apart the stigma of, like, a DSO, you know, versus an emerging group, versus multisite. And, you know, like, when people think DSO, I think a lot of them automatically think private equity. And I think that is where a bulk of the consternation with people stands is that, like, private equity, in dental practices, not always the multi group or, excuse me, multisite emerging group piece of it. And and so would love to hear from you, man, on, hey. How did you come about founding what you founded?
Justin Clements:How did you wanna stand out and be different? How did you build that brand? How do you build in your brand? Again, I think that that is equally as important as we talk about branding for an office. Individual branding is just as important.
Justin Clements:So I've I've talked too much, and I want you to talk now because you have more insights than that.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Different things. So how much time time do we have? Like I
Justin Clements:don't know. I don't know. The I mean, we've got some time. So let's just let's say that let's hit all 9 of those things, though.
Jon Rat:All 9.
Dr. Brad Hughes:We'll start. We're so small. You know, I I think, you know, for me, it was literally, like, 2013. You know, I'd been in practice for about 6 years, and I'm, like, you know, I I was growing the practice I was in. We had beyond doubled the size of the practice from when I had first acquired it, but I just felt like there was more, like, there was just an entrepreneurial itch that I'm, like, I I just I feel like I can keep going.
Dr. Brad Hughes:I feel like we can do more than what we're doing. Like, I can either scale this thing up and 5 x it from where we're at, or we can go, you know, kinda do this entrepreneurial thing. And and it took me another 5 or 5 and a half years from there before I actually acquired my second practice, which was in 2019. I just felt like we needed to build a foundation. I needed to learn, you know, I was, like, you know, identifying as just a dentist at that point, but, like, I needed to learn a little bit more about business and about kinda the model I wanted to build.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And, you know, at at that point, I acquired a second practice, and I I think as you start going to multisite and you start, like, plucking out your good people from your first practice, you realize that, oh, this is this is kinda hard because I'm taking the good people from my first practice, and I'm, like, utilizing them to coach in the second practice and the third practice, and, you know, it was that time where we were like, man, I gotta I gotta start really kinda building out a bit of a management team, which I think is really what separates, like, multisite from emerging group, which is, like, the Vision Dental Partners piece of what we do. You know, we've got full HR. We've got operations teams. We've got a controller. We've got fractional CFOs.
Dr. Brad Hughes:You just you know, we've got all of the things that you need to operate an actual company, and and they're not just all based at the practice level. You know, interestingly enough, I'm like, I need a name for this, and, like, everybody else has just, like, weird names. So I'm I'm a private pilot, so I like, my my favorite airplane, a Cirrus Vision Jet, which is like a single engine jet that, like, was some crazy wild 10 year journey to get certified, and, like, change the entire aviation world, and, like, name my company after that, because I'm, like, maybe someday I wanna have one of those. And not to because it's, like, a money thing, but just, like, just work your ass off and see where this thing goes, and, you know, whatever. But, sort of like Gary v with the Jets.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Right? Like, I had to have something that was
Justin Clements:Yes. You had to have a thing. Yeah.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And, you know, at at that point, we've we've made 82 mistakes and a 101 positive things, so we're net winning over the last x amount of years, and, so we talk about brands. So I think the thing that we are looking to do, like, you know, I'm so quickly moving away from the traditional avenues of marketing and just, like, Google Ads and direct mail and all these things. And most people are like, well, you know, social media doesn't work, blah blah blah because they did it for, like, 4 posts and gave up. And, so we're we're gonna build a production company alongside Vision Dental Partners, and we're going to build brand for our doctors. And and that's gonna become our marketing piece.
Dr. Brad Hughes:We're kind of in the beginning stages of that. We've added some people to the to the, as as pieces of the puzzle, and and we're just gonna scale this thing up and and just do it very differently than I think most do and use it as a differentiator.
Justin Clements:That's like, okay, me being in marketing, it's music to my ears. I think it's what's really interesting and unique there is that, like, you have identified that the way of marketing is changing in the way in which we engage. But not only that, like, there is a, like you're going to use it for the doctors that come aboard your practices to help build their brand. So it's it's it's not like you're using it to, like, build vision, dental partners directly. Like, it's like okay.
Justin Clements:Like, I don't know. The way I envision is, like, you send your production team into this doctor that's taken over this practice, and now they're shooting with them. They're building content with them and the team, making it super personable. I think that is I I think it's definitely innovative, and I think in in a really good way because traditional marketing, especially in the DSO landscape, is very broken. And, I I think it's looked at as a cost center rather than an investment.
Justin Clements:And it sounds like you feel like there is positive traction in brand awareness. So, like, I don't know. Tell us a little bit more about the brand awareness piece and where you see that kind of, like, being next level from, like, Google Ads and all that fun crap.
Dr. Brad Hughes:You know, to to to really I would say, to to really put it out there, we are we're going to become a production company that happens to do dentistry. And so, you know, because a lot of people dentistry, like, we're well, we're in the people business, we just happen to do dentistry. Well, that's fine. We are too. We just wanna become a production company, so to speak, that happens to do dentistry.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And because I just think brand is that important. Like, there's this kind of race to the bottom to become, like, the cheapest game in town, the Walmart. I think, you know, Justin, you had a really good post the other day on LinkedIn about, you know, full
Jon Rat:Don't tell you that. Don't tell you that.
Justin Clements:No. I actually blow my ego up or something. Yeah. Like My head my head's getting bigger.
Dr. Brad Hughes:It was a it was a very good, like, so, you know, the more that these digital ad guys and girls market full arch, the lower the price goes, the price point keeps coming down, like but instead, just build brand, be the best damn at that thing, and people will come to you. You know, I've got a dentist in the middle of Indiana who's just a phenomenal implant guy. He was trained by one of our prosthodontists. We have people that come from 50 miles for him to do implants because he's built brand. We're not in that in that in network with a single insurance.
Dr. Brad Hughes:We're you know, does a phenomenal job. He's put in the work. We just need more attention on him, And there's only so many ways we can do that through, you know, a direct mailer or throwing out some Google ad about, hey. You need implants, blah blah blah. Like, we need to get at scale multiple pieces of content on different platforms every single day that show who he is, what his newborn baby likes to eat, where he and his wife travel, the things that he screwed up around leadership in his 10 years of practice, the the best parts about his daily life, what he does on the weekends, and everything in between.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And people need to build a relationship with him over 6 months and then decide to come see him as opposed to go, well, they can come in on a $99 hygiene special and blah blah blah. Right? So, I just I I'm I'm, like, obsessed with brand because it's it's, like, I've never understood it more than I have over the last probably 6 or 8 months, and it and it finally started to click a little bit. And I think I'm just barely starting to scratch the surface, but we need to lead the way in in making this happen, and, I don't wanna just race to the bottom and and just be down there with everybody else.
Jon Rat:I I love what you are saying here because I think what you and I discussed previously, we have to or dentist have to realize that nobody likes to go to the dentist. Let's be honest. If you have 30 minute of free time, you are not thinking, but I'm gonna go hang out with my dentist to get a cleaning. And therefore, you have to build the relationship. And many, actually, dentists see it as a transaction.
Jon Rat:And I'm not talking about money, but like a transaction. You come, I do your cleaning, you pay. Instead, people wanna feel like they can connect with you. They ask someone to get to know you. They want to work neatly comfortable.
Jon Rat:We actually discussed with one of, our customer, who is a pediatric dentist who has a kid, being able to actually showcase that he himself is a parent, knows the struggle of being a parent, and, like, having that and sharing that with the patient that will come in or the parents of the patient that will come see him is critical. And so I I agree with you. Like, building a brand is extremely important. And by building a brand, you are basically showing that you're a person. You're a person, and you can care care about your patient.
Jon Rat:You struggle as well. But one thing that I've seen as well is to build a brand, you need to be self aware of who you are, your strengths, your weaknesses, and potentially work on some of those weaknesses. And so as you're actually building that platform and helping us out there, it's like, how do you plan actually of because not everybody is good in front of a camera. Not everybody would be good at sharing and opening who they are. And so are you planning also on, like, first identifying who are the right profile to do this?
Jon Rat:Or also coaching those that feel like they cannot do it and need help?
Dr. Brad Hughes:Yeah. I mean, I I think a little bit about, like, I have to go do it first. Right? Like, I have to be the one that throws myself out there, I have to be the one that, you know, I can't go to any of our doctors and say, hey, here's what we're gonna do if I haven't done it first. So, you know, we've got some SOPs around that, we've we've got some pretty talented people to to help in that regard, but but I I think it's I think anybody can do it.
Dr. Brad Hughes:I really do, like I think when you really break it down, like nobody loves getting on camera initially, nobody loves being vulnerable, but you know if you're recruiting the right type of people into your company, and we talk about self awareness all the time, like you hit the nail on the head, like you've got to be self aware. But you've also gotta be enough if you're self aware, you're also the type that's okay throwing out and saying, you know, like, look I'm not, like, these are things I've not done well, and be okay with the fact that there's gonna be, like, understand that when you humanize yourself, people actually like you more. Like, that's the whole reason I'm on here, I think is the fact that just me putting myself out there, like, I actually get to gain people in my life like you guys who are sort of like minded that I would have never had before, and it's the same way. Like our patients are literally a little microcosm of social media in our practice, like when they come in the patients that stick around are part of your community just like they would be on Instagram or LinkedIn or wherever, like the reason they're there is because they identify with your brand, you're like minded, you have commonality, whatever.
Dr. Brad Hughes:I mean, like our practices when you really think about it are sort of like a little Instagram account, like the people that come in and stick around for 5 years are they they wanna be part of our community. They like our brand. They like they they have some type of commonality with us, and I think that's important. Sometimes these doctors just think it's like, we're gonna go dance on social media or some weird crap like that, and it's like this is not the shit we're doing at all. Like, this is this is actually showing people who you are from a vulnerability standpoint and from a human standpoint, and you can now go reach a 100 x times more people to show that off than what, than what you could have otherwise, and and you can actually tell people what your why is
Jon Rat:at scale.
Justin Clements:Yeah. No. I I think that's that's great, and, you know, it's just the authenticity piece of it, right, of putting your authentic genuine self out there. Like, we're all tribes. Like, we just we gravitate towards like minded people, and it's important to remember that, like, the end of the day as a business, you're trying to attract more customers, more patients, whatever the business is that you're in.
Justin Clements:And so by continuing to build out that that tribe of people, right, you're not the only one on the in this world that exists that has been through similar problems as yourself. Right? There are others that have struggled or that have excelled in certain things. And, you know, there's so many ways that you can connect with somebody. And by being that vulnerable self, it I think, yeah, it really does allow you to it allows you to hook the patients.
Justin Clements:And so if we talk if we're talking in, like, social media terms, allows you to hook the friends versus the trolls. Right? The trolls are the ones that don't value the experience, or, you know, they're just trying to to to price shop, things of that sort. But now you're giving yourself and I think it's actually really interesting to say, like, hey, doctor. Come join our group.
Justin Clements:We'll pre be your production crew. We will ask all the preliminary questions, fine you know, through the hiring process, I'm sure you're doing it. Like, figuring out who they are. Do they have a story? Do they have a personality?
Justin Clements:Do they have something that's relatable? Because I would guess that that is probably, you know, one of the hardest things is is is just getting through and finding out who is not necessarily marketable, but, like, marketable, I guess.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Yeah. I mean, I every like, literally everybody has value to bring at some capacity. Right? I mean, everybody's good at something. I mean, it and that doesn't matter if you're a doctor, a hygienist, an assistant, you work in the front office, you're in in any level, you're my HR director, like, everybody has value to bring because of their life experience, because of their clinical experience, because of their work experience, because of their relationship experience, because of their travel experiences.
Dr. Brad Hughes:I mean, I think we all gain something when more people are out there sharing those experiences. We learn from their mistakes, we celebrate their wins, and I think you used a great term just like when you talk about just like, we're all just kinda tribes, like that genuinely is is what it is. And, I think it becomes a recruitment tool from a work standpoint because I think there will be a lot of younger doctors that go, hey, that's different. And at the end of the day, like, there's like, I'm not gonna go redefine like, I like, this buzzword around dentistry is like we're redefining dentistry. Like, I see it on every damn website out there.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Like, I get so frickin' annoyed with that. The reality is that you're not you're not doing anything different than anybody else. Like you're like some people are doing more clear aligners, some people are doing more implants, some people are doing more endo, whatever. You're not gonna redefine anything, but like if there's one thing I can do that can differentiate us from other people is that exactly what I'm saying from a production team standpoint is what we're gonna build out, and I don't think anybody else is really doing that right now.
Justin Clements:Until they hear this podcast, then they're just gonna be like, oh shit, this dude's got a really good idea. We're gonna go do that now.
Jon Rat:How do you plan on, I'm I'm gonna try to play the other side here where you are going to build a brand, and then brand for yourself, brand for the group. But at some point, then patient will know you. And they would be like, I wanna see doctor of you. And I wanna see the other doctor, which we know can happen already in a practice. Right?
Jon Rat:If, usually, if you have a practice owner or you you hire your first associates, some patient will be like, I don't see the associate with the the thinking that the associate is not as good, which is actually not true. So how do you plan on navigating through this? Is it, like, to have each doctor create their own brand or, like, make it more, like, the group? Walk us through that. I'm sure you have thought about this at first.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Everybody's gotta create their own brand. Everybody's different, you know, I mean like I think there's an egotistical aspect to say that like we all wanna see the most amount of patience. Right? Maybe that's not ego, but maybe it's we all think we're pretty good at what we do, I don't know. I I think you know most of these associates are very good, or at least they're average or above average, which that's kind of the clinical expectation, just be average or above average.
Dr. Brad Hughes:You're not hurting people, you're doing decent enough work, and if you can do that and that's the expectation, you can build massive brand. And that's what you said earlier John, now it comes down to just being a human being, it comes to relating with the patient. It's it's forming that commonality with them, finding what you where you think similarly, the things you like to do that are that, that have similarity. And I everybody's just gonna build a brand. Like, if you wanna work in my company, you will work on personal brand.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Like, that becomes a nonnegotiable sort of, like, some groups are, like, hey. If you wanna work for us, you're gonna be able to do root canal number 30. That's great. I don't care if you do it or not. There's great endodontists out there, but you will build brand around who you are and and what you believe, because at that point, like patients do get to choose when they come in, like I hope there are tons of patients that come to my practices and they're like I really don't give a rad's patoot about doctor Hughes, like I want to see that dude because he seems awesome.
Dr. Brad Hughes:He's way cooler than Hughes, or she's way better looking than he is, I want to see her, he's way smarter and better than he, so like that's who I wanna see, like, great. Do that. And that's the exact point of Brandon is, you know, everybody's got their strengths, and and, some patients are gonna wanna
Jon Rat:I mean
Dr. Brad Hughes:There's a little more patient autonomy in my book.
Jon Rat:Absolutely. And and we see it actually. I mean, I don't, like, I have seen on Instagram, for example, some dentists who have built a huge brand. And now guess what? Some patient will be willing to even travel to see that doctor.
Jon Rat:Some will be, like, like, focusing on who they are as a person, but also after what type of work they do. And, again, like, each dentist is different, but if you wanna become I mean, I've seen some talk with veneers. Again, I don't know much about veneers myself, but, the ventist to name him, like, who is, like, the orthodontist. I mean, like, everybody by now probably has seen at least one video from him. And so and and actually what I like with what he does is there is some touch of like, he's funny, but, like, he actually sometimes share also about who he is, and some of the struggle.
Jon Rat:Like you said, it's not all about the shiny. It's like, we have people. And I've seen actually a few dentists doing this, and I agree. And those are the one that, at the end, will win. Are they the best, clinically?
Jon Rat:Probably not. But they are the one that are the best at building their reputation, their brand. And so you you said you are building a production team. How will you balance actually between or, like, how often should you cost? What should you cost?
Jon Rat:Have you thought about this? Like, how do like, I'm sure there is, like, a lot of thinking that go behind this. Tell us more.
Justin Clements:Yeah.
Dr. Brad Hughes:You know, I mean, I I think the strategy behind it is is you've just gotta do virtually as much as you possibly can. And the the content, the, like, the content matters. Right? So it's not just go post just to post, it's that you need to post good copy. It needs to be well edited.
Dr. Brad Hughes:You know, the we're we're gonna be doing a lot. I guess the strategy around it is, like, I mean, we could really dive into the to the the nuts and bolts of that, but, I mean, we're gonna have 10 plus video editors, I mean, between 8 practices just initially. So, I mean, there there's some lifting there, plus 2 more content directors, etcetera, etcetera. So, I mean, like, a lot of the strategy stuff, like, we've got a list of 200 just content ideas already just for the at the practice level that we've laid out. Content directors will go to practices.
Dr. Brad Hughes:We'll we'll we'll have different it's not gonna just be during clinical time. We'll do it on evenings, weekends, you know, areas in the community that are, you know, popular spots. Like, go out to a popular go out to a popular restaurant on a Friday night where there's just tons of people and go film content because you're gonna get eyeballs on you. They're gonna wanna know who is this, what are they doing, and then how do I see it. You know?
Dr. Brad Hughes:This isn't just, like, here I am in scrubs. Let me show you who I am, and I'll show you my doctor title here on my scrubs. Like, go out and get into the community and do this stuff. I mean, we were filming a bunch of content. I was coming back from Indiana on Tuesday night of this week.
Dr. Brad Hughes:You know, we were filming a bunch of content in in O'Hare. Right? Like, just walking through the airport. Like, just get comfortable doing those things. So I think the strategy becomes, like, you know, again, I don't I don't wanna steal a bunch of stuff from really high level, you know, people in marketing and on the social media side, but, like, you've just gotta post a lot, and then see what's working, and then, you know, things that work maybe become a little bit of a paid ad on different platforms.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Things that don't, we you know? Was it was it the copy? Was it the editing? Was it the the, the topic? What was it?
Dr. Brad Hughes:I mean, just and then just really dive into the data because it's not just about it's not just posting for the sake of posting, it's marketing for the sake of better marketing. Right? Like, do it, and then study it, and then make it better. So, you know I mean we initially rolled out. I'm sure there'll be some things that we tweak.
Jon Rat:I think you said one thing. It's not stealing, actually. Like, this is something that is working in many industries. And so, but, like like, many as a part of dentistry that is still 20 years beyond, I see it in marketing. Right now, a lot of practices like, even actually from, like, your website to how you advertise to how you market, like, we are still stuck 20 years behind.
Jon Rat:Like, I mean, there are still many practices that don't have a website today. So how do you get discovered if you don't have a website? And then they don't have any, like, places where patient can see who they are. I mean, if you don't have a website and you don't have, like, a social media account, how do people know who you are as a dentist other than potentially a lot of patient telling them about? And so what what's interesting is so many industries are already ahead, doing all of this that I think it's smart for me to go and see, like, what works.
Jon Rat:Let's try it and rinse and repeat. What doesn't work, then we don't really do it. And and what works, let's let's go deeper, and figure out how we make it better. And so I I love that concept, because I think that's we need people to we innovate. And I think that's actually worth some time.
Jon Rat:I mean, I tell Justin this, like, in dentistry, we are lacking innovation in many forms. Yeah. And so he, really, really, excited to see what you are going to come up with.
Dr. Brad Hughes:I I think 12 months from now, the conversation will be very different. Right? Like, as as we've, you know, just barely started to scratch the surface, I think a year from now, I hope, I genuinely believe that we will be doing it completely different than everybody else out there, and that freaking excites me. So at, as we update in, like, 12 months, like, we'll we'll, we'll yeah. I think it'll be wildly different.
Dr. Brad Hughes:So
Justin Clements:Yeah. No. It is exciting, and we gotta make sure we book that 12 month fall. Because I'm really honestly, like, it it will be really cool to see how it all unfolds. And, again, the the what's it like like, we mentioned from, like, a recruiting standpoint and pulling these younger doctors in.
Justin Clements:Like, they're already right? You're you're moving generations, right, as we all get older here. And I still think a lot of people are chasing the older generation, right, the boomers. Right? Because, like, oh, they've got money, they've got retirement, or they need implants.
Justin Clements:But, like, what happens when they die? Right? Like, they're gone. You move on, and now you've got the next phase of people that are more privy to the Internet and social media and to networks. And, like, if you're not getting ahead like this, I think in in the content and the and it's called, like, awareness.
Justin Clements:Right? Like, how are you creating awareness to who you are? You know, if you're not getting ahead of it, then you're gonna be really far behind. And it's it's gonna be, like, the sudden switch off where it's, like, shoot. Like, I didn't pick this up 5, 10 years ago, and now, like, I'm trying to dig this massive, massive hole out of a massive hole, and it's it's too difficult.
Justin Clements:K.
Dr. Brad Hughes:I I think it's why so many 56 year old dentists don't wanna go recruit associates because the recruiting associate doctors that have I mean, we just interviewed I'm just a brilliant young dentist. She has 19,000 Instagram followers. Now, look, that like, in the grand scheme of Instagram, that's probably not, like, massive, but that's more than anybody I know. And Yeah. I'm like I mean, who's gonna relate to her better?
Dr. Brad Hughes:Somebody who's like, you know, hey. We're gonna you're gonna have an entire production team around you, or you can go work and, you know, they can send out direct mailers for you and get you $89 hygiene special patients, or you can go work for the 56 year old dentist who just wants you to do fillings all day until they retire, and your wrists fall off. You know? It's like, I I I think that we just have to do things that, you know, that just get us in the game. I mean, we're recruiting against big boys and girls at this point.
Dr. Brad Hughes:We're recruiting against $1,000,000,000 companies. We've gotta be able to do something to, to compete. And, you know, there's we we talk about strategy, and I will say, like, there's a little bit that we're doing with with one company that until next week, I can't really say a whole hell of a lot. That sounds really, like, CIA, like, bullshit, but, like, legit. There's a program that I I got accepted into that I can't really say a whole lot about until next week, but, like, I mean, when you talk social media branding, they're maybe one of the greatest companies in the world, and so, like, a lot of our strategy is going through them, and, I think we're gonna come out on the other side getting out of the the the echo chamber that is the dental marketing space a little bit.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Like, there's it's it's kind of the same ideas over and over and over. Like Justin said earlier, I think, I I'm just excited. I'm I'm Yeah. I it's like Friday at almost 4 o'clock. I'm still ready to go work.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Like, I got, like, 2 more days in me, so this is the weekend's hitting in a bad time.
Justin Clements:Yeah. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna have like, this program you're getting accepted into, I'm just gonna, like I'm gonna take a guess, and you don't have to give a face. I'm I'm hoping that it's for Mosey or something along with with Alex or Mosey. Maybe it's not. I close to that.
Justin Clements:Is it close, like, I
Dr. Brad Hughes:exactly who it is and what it is when I tell you that
Jon Rat:Oh, so
Justin Clements:yeah. That. No. It's funny, like, that, like, that dude has like, him and his wife have a really solid system, and I think, like, I've got his $100,000,000 leads and offers. And, you know, it's just he's got a model that that that works really well.
Justin Clements:And it's yeah. I think when I was reading it, I was like, how do you apply that to dentistry? It was kind of hard. Because you think, like, what is your offer? And most people would be like, it's the hygiene special or it's the free fucking whitening that nobody actually wants.
Justin Clements:Like, here, come get your little whitening too. I'm gonna shove some bleach in your mouth. But now what you're saying is that, like, no. My like, your offer as a multiunit group is a production team is, like, to create a scene because everybody right? There are things that drive people, whether it's money, status, you know, whatever that is.
Justin Clements:Like, you you're honing in on that component of it, which is a true it's a true offer. Right?
Dr. Brad Hughes:And I think the offer for the the patient level is, like, you know who you're coming to see.
Jon Rat:Mhmm. I I
Dr. Brad Hughes:mean, to me that's a big deal, like, where I mean, I don't I I mean, you know, I go in for my dermatology check once a year where I can, you know, I gotta, you know, undress down to my skivvies for some like NP who's like a 28 year old to look me up and down. I'm like I have no frickin' idea who I'm gonna see, 0 idea, and I'm like almost butt ass naked. And with dental practice, if you can build a relationship for 3 to 12 months with that patient before they ever come in, they know what they're getting to a certain extent. Right? They know the good, the bad.
Dr. Brad Hughes:They know the family. They know the practice. They know the they know what they're getting at that point, and I think I think there's incredible value with that. Like, I mean, you've you've literally know that person before you ever step in their door, and it becomes less about this, and more about already having that that premade relationship, and I you just can't replicate that in any other way.
Jon Rat:I mean, and and guess what, actually? As a as a dentist, what you are trying to do is build relationships so that patient stay with you for the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. Alright? I mean, realistically, that's what you want. So patient retention is extremely important.
Jon Rat:Instead of always trying to get new patients, if you build that relationship before they come in, you continue that relationship as you see them. I mean, now your patient base is, like, huge, and and it becomes more, like, fun for you because they get to know you. You will get to know them. The appointment itself becomes more like, we have a chat, not just a transaction again. And so I I am like, this is 100% spot on.
Jon Rat:Where where it's gonna be interesting after is I know, for example, like, some people like to keep some of the personal side private. I mean, I see it actually my own wife. Like, Yep. She she prefers to keep a lot of things private. And so that's gonna be, like, how do we find the right balance and some would be like, okay.
Jon Rat:But you can still have boundaries, I think.
Justin Clements:For sure.
Jon Rat:But but 100% creating that relationship before, during, after. When the next cleaning appointment comes up and you send a text to say, like, hey, you are due for your cleaning. It's, again, it's not the transaction. It's like, hey, me, the dentist that you have been following that now you know who I am. We'll tell you come back.
Jon Rat:It's gonna be more like a friend telling you to come back because I care about your teeth and your hygiene than just like, oh, I need to get the money from you because you're insurance. Like, again, it's all about the perception and the communication. 100%.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And I and I agree with your wife. Like, I'm not big on
Justin Clements:just
Dr. Brad Hughes:throwing my personal life necessarily out there, but I think that there's that she would still be able to bring so much value because I think she's been in practice since, what, like, 09?
Jon Rat:09. Yeah.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And, I mean, think about how much value she'd have from her experience and things she's done well, the things she's had to learn, the Mhmm. Leadership that she's had to you know, the things she screwed up with her team and the things she's done great and the I mean, there's just so much value for everybody with what she could bring from that side of things. And
Justin Clements:Mhmm.
Dr. Brad Hughes:You know, it doesn't have to be you know, we're going to, you know, Aspen to go skiing next weekend, and we're gonna tell the world. It just it just needs to be where can you create value, and and, you know, and and I think patients and people just I think just human beings wanna see that. Yeah.
Justin Clements:I think that's a really important point. I mean, sorry, John, but, like, I I've got I got a little worked up inside here when I heard, like, you don't it's not about being flashy. It's not about jet setting and just showing some, like like, we do live in America. Right? And it does that does have a level of attractiveness, but that's just like a that's a it's a it's a fake high.
Justin Clements:Right? It's a false high. And where, like, long term genuine relations come from are authentic content. And so, like, if it's a video of me, I don't even know, like, just playing in the front yard with the kids or something along, you know, something along those those personal lines. Again, that just shows you that you are human.
Justin Clements:Like, again, everybody only really likes to put, like, the really big highs and the highlights on social media, And I think that's that's what's, like, in my mind, like, I won't go off on this tangent, but, like, the mental health crisis in America, I think a lot of it stems from that. And if you're you know, in this case, by promoting the authentic brand, you're encouraging you know, you're just encouraging representation and and conversation and honesty. And I think, like, again, it's it's really awesome, and I think it's important to your point to make the content all genuine. Like, don't don't don't just make what's going to appeal. Like, yes.
Justin Clements:It has to be effective. Right? And so you have to test what content works and doesn't work. But if one piece of content works at 80% and the other works at 10%, but it's still relatable to somebody, what investment do you have in it other than, you know, 20 minutes of time of on recording about something like that?
Jon Rat:I mean, I I I love what you said here. Be truthful. Don't pretend a lie that is not your own life. Because I think people will read through it first. Yes.
Jon Rat:At first, it might attract some people who will be like, oh, I want to fly a private jet. I want to have, like, a personal driver when it's just a Uber driver. But I I think, actually, being more truthful and honest and I have a few dentists that I follow on Instagram. I think there is I mean and I don't know them personally, but doctor Brady, who was just out there, the wig that flew off. And he's like, well, yes.
Jon Rat:I'm bald and I wear a wig. And guess what? Now he owns it, and and I think it's like being vulnerable. There was, I think it's doctor, doctor girlfriend. That's her Instagram.
Jon Rat:Like, doctor Judy, she's a pediatric doctor. Then she was, like, trying some of the struggle, and I love that. Like, if I was actually I don't have kids, but if I was a a parent and I would want to actually take my kids to, to her because she is not just about the shiny stuff. She actually share, like, stuff with dentistry as well. Like, she was doing some homework showing that she's just a real person like you and I.
Jon Rat:And and, like, guess what? If one day we have a bad experience, we got appointments. I mean, one thing that people forget is we all have ups and downs. We all have days where it's not a good day. And, like, if you see that that person is a really human, and, yes, one day you might go for your appointment and, like, not all laugh, smile and laugh, then, again, you probably won't post a one star review after.
Jon Rat:You might be like, oh, actually, because I know that person can be here now. But, again, it's like preventing potentially, actually, that kind of behavior or attitude. Doctor Yu was not good today. Like, didn't laugh at my jokes that were bad jokes. Oh, but, yes, but I remember seeing his videos.
Jon Rat:And, like, again, now I know you. I I think it's so important. And, again, don't be fake. Don't put it in a lie that is not yours. Otherwise, people will see it.
Jon Rat:And I think the people you will attract first are not the people you want to have with you, actually. Yeah.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Yeah. I mean, I think most people can see through when it's when there's because, I mean, authentic gets thrown around a a lot. Right? But Yeah. When you're when you're not authentic, people tend to see through that bullshit.
Jon Rat:Yeah. So, I mean, not so I think sometimes not at first. If people don't know you at first, they will believe what you're posting. But very quickly, when you open and and you're like, oh, actually, you know, that was, like, all fluff. And, again, that that actually could be a big slap on the face, by the way, where you get the hype, the own hype, and after reality comes back.
Jon Rat:And and actually can do more than good, actually. That's why, again, being honest and truthful and and vulnerable will be key.
Dr. Brad Hughes:Or yeah. Because the opposite just brings unrelatability. Mhmm. Right? I mean, if you're just, like, you know, showing yourself walking off of air, you know, private jets, and you're flinging your hair around, and you're, like, doing this that and the other like that.
Dr. Brad Hughes:I mean, that that becomes a little, there there's a bit of an unrelatable ability to that that I think probably over time breeds some nonauthenticity.
Jon Rat:So, like, let's Next time I see you on a economy seat, and I sit next to you, I'd be like, what is your private jet?
Justin Clements:I think it's really, like but here's the thing, though. Like and I know we've been at this for 40 minutes already, but one of the things is is when you do that flashy stuff, like, dentists buy into it, man. Like, they really do. And so, like, how do we how do we change that? Like, how do you shift that mentality of and maybe it is just through genuine authentic maybe somebody needs to go that route, experience the the glitz and the and the glam, and then it's not actually what they need, and then it's like, oh, shit.
Justin Clements:It's like how how do we how do you change kind of the mentality? Yeah. See, we're all stumped. Right? It's, like, it's it's hard.
Jon Rat:It's it's harder. That's a great question and something that you and I have been chatting on the side for quite some time is the fact that right now actually, I'm not talking about patient here. I'm talking about dentist. Yeah. Believe too quickly what they see without digging.
Jon Rat:I mean, I see so many expert. I mean, we joke about this. Right? Right now, there are so many AI experts in dentistry. Probably more AI expert in dentistry than in my own network right now in Silicon Valley.
Jon Rat:And and when you look at those AI experts, they use ChargeGPT. That's why they call themselves expert. You are not an AI expert if you use ChargeGPT. You are a consumer of AI. But what I see is that I mean, I see also some dentists who call themselves cloud experts, and they don't know shit.
Jon Rat:Excuse my French. But yet, I have some dentist who tell me that, oh, that dentist said that, and they believe in it. And I'm like, what can we do? And so that that again is is a question where I don't have the answer. Yeah.
Jon Rat:Because sometimes people believe what they see without necessarily questioning or digging behind behind the curtain.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And I and I think part of the reason is because, you know, and and being a dentist and being around a lot of dentists, I think there there's often times the mindset and, look, there are a ton of great dentists out there who do a very good job from a, you know, very good people, but there's also a number that wanna just pay somebody to help them get to the top. Right? And I think that those people, like, hey. If I could just pay this person x y z amount, they're gonna help do the they're gonna do the work for me. They're gonna automatically get me there because they know what's going on.
Dr. Brad Hughes:And I think that's why that there's so many dentists attracted to that. Because it's, like, it's the easy way out. It's the quick road. And quite honestly, I don't think that ever works out very well.
Justin Clements:Yeah. I would agree. And I you think that, like and Swank is, like, that's mainly, like, the business that I'm in is working with dentists of that mindset, but, like, getting the ones that are invested in making the change. Right? It's like you have you can't just pay somebody to do it.
Justin Clements:You've gotta be invested in the process, and you have to understand and fully believe in the process and make sure it makes sense for you. It it can't just be a usually, it just can't be a cookie cutter approach that copy and paste over to everybody. Like, there you have to have skin in the game outside of the money piece of it, and you have to be dedicated to it towards, like because right? And that we like, through that post stuff, like, there are plenty of coaches and experts out there, and there's people that are just leeching money off of off of people. But there's also, like, the people that are out there that are being really valuable coaches, consultants, whatever mentors, whatever you wanna call them.
Justin Clements:Like, there are really good individuals out there that, like, you do. You have to put time into the process, you know, into the right person in order to see the results that people, you know, are expecting. Because if there were magic wands that we could wave for all this shit, like, everybody would be successful. And guess what? We all we're all not.
Jon Rat:You're not? You don't fly private jets and
Justin Clements:I mean, I I have my I have my kids' little people jet that, you know, plays the same sound every every 4 pushes, and I fly that around my living room. But that's about as close as I'm getting to a private jet.
Jon Rat:You know what? You I mean, again, jet me to to to wrap up maybe on a final note. I think, actually, being successful what does that even mean, actually? Being successful, honestly, is different for each person. I mean, you said it.
Jon Rat:You have your 2 girls, and that's probably your biggest success, to be honest. Absolutely. I I think, actually, going back to authenticity, presenting who you are, I think defining your why, what doctor Liu were saying, actually, like, you have to know your why. Your why is what what do you wanna achieve? Who do you wanna be?
Jon Rat:What do you wanna be known for? What is your legacy that you wanna leave behind? And what do we have to acknowledge is that we're all different. You I mean, doctor Yu, you said you're on your plane. Right?
Jon Rat:Your vision, plane, which I mean Yeah. Is like
Dr. Brad Hughes:because I'm like ripping on people with private jets. Right?
Justin Clements:You know?
Jon Rat:No. But that's that that's like why in the same way, like, Gary Vee with the owning the Jets. I think it's important that we all acknowledge where our whole why were all different and but I also mean, like, not necessarily all doing the same. But that's also why you have to be able to present yourself as who you are.
Dr. Brad Hughes:But I think, you know you know, I'll also sit there and tell you the 410 things I screwed up this week.
Jon Rat:But, I mean, yeah, that's I mean, I'm an entrepreneur, so I will say, only the people who actually do things can make mistake. You can only screw up things if you try. And, actually, that was a quote. I don't remember exactly how he said it, but Steve Jobs said it better. Right?
Jon Rat:If you don't try, you will never make mistake. You will never do anything wrong. And, I mean, I I'd like to say that if you are a dentist, that already means you try to go to dental school. You already try things. So you already have some kind of mentality.
Jon Rat:If you're gonna practice, you already try your entrepreneur in some way. So, like, don't limit yourself, basically. But you need the right mindset, and you need self awareness. Know who you are Yep. Which is not easy.
Jon Rat:Not easy.
Justin Clements:No. Awesome. Well, this this was a great I think this was a great episode, you know, just looking at the, like, the I think it it it really transformed and evolved from the beginning of the conversation in a really good way of talking about the branding piece. How can people be different? How can companies be different?
Justin Clements:And what does true innovation in this industry look like? Doctor Hughes, I think you're a prime example of it. Of course, you have to go out and execute it. Right? But fully believe that that you and the team will, and sounds like you guys got an awesome road ahead of you.
Justin Clements:So we're excited to to stay in touch and to continue to follow your journey. As long as you keep pumping out the videos, we'll keep watching them. And, you know, before I, before we go, one of your employees wanted to say that I should comment on your hair looks good. And so, I will I'll throw that in there, and and that's, that's where I'll end the conversation.
Jon Rat:And looking forward to see more of your post on LinkedIn as well. Really, you get to enjoy everything you share. And, yes, your your hair looks fantastic. So, thank you, doctor Leo, for for joining us. This was, Justin and John talk dentistry.
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