J&J Talk Dentistry

 

 Hey everybody. Welcome back to another podcast of Justin and John talk dentistry. Today we've got Dr. Dan and Dr. Mark, and the topic for today is going to be starting up a practice versus buying one. Which one was the dumber decision? Maybe we'll find out, maybe we won't. Um, and we're actually going to learn it from, from people from two doctors that actually did it themselves.

Um, you know, not some old, uh, person, maybe sitting on a board that's never done it themselves, but people that have actually put their blood, sweat and tears and their own money into it. It's going to be super exciting episode. Uh, and with that, uh, I'll kick it off to Dr. Dan, Dr. Mark to highlight for us their introductions and tell us a little bit more about who they are.

Right. Um, I'm Dr. Mark. I am located in Tulsa, Oklahoma generally. Um, after finishing residency, I actually practiced with the DSO as part ownership. In the Colorado area and did that for about nine months. And then I watched tiger King and I was like, I gotta get to Oklahoma there. There's a need there. And, uh, that's not actually what happened, but it sounds a whole lot better.

Um, and there definitely was a need. Um, and I didn't learn my lesson. So I jumped from one DSO into another one where they were trying to add in a specialty and kind of the, the appeal of getting into the ground floor. Um, and I actually partnered and did an office with them, which was an acquisition. And realized very quickly that, uh, I needed to not be part of a DSO and, um, that it was just an infectious disease that I needed to get rid of.

Um, since then, I have actually, um, I, you can, you can ask me all the questions you want. I, I had the plan of building an office and I've been working on building an office from scratch when middle of June this year, a doctor's like, I'm gonna close my doors. You want to buy my office? And I had about three weeks to, uh, figure that all out.

And I bought it and opened the doors, flipped it around, opened it. August 14th was my first day with an acquisition. In the meantime, I'm actually still also building an office too. So yeah, I'm not too smart, but it's working out so good so far. So you will be able to share both, uh, the acquisition and somewhat like starting from scratch then.

Uh, awesome. Absolutely. Well, welcome to the podcast, Dr. Mark. Dr. Dan, can you introduce yourself to everyone? Of course, of course, uh, I'm, I'm Dan. Uh, I'm a pediatric dentist, just like Mark. Um, and I practice out in Colorado Springs. Um, I did my pediatric training with Dr. Mark. I was a year below him. Um, we both did it in Colorado, up in Aurora, which is next to Denver.

And, uh, I ended up taking a job in Colorado Springs as an associate, and I did that in private practice, and I did that for about two years before I started to get the itch to start my own. And so, um, I started my practice from scratch, um, in Colorado Springs, outside my non compete, obviously. Um, and, and, uh, and that's been a really fun journey.

We're about 20 months in now, so shy of two years, but, or, but, uh, things are going in the right direction. So happy to talk about all of that and all the things that, uh, we've, I've done since essentially. Awesome. Thank you, Dr. Dan. And, and by the way, as we were preparing this podcast, we heard some nice story between the two of you before starting your practice.

We probably won't share them now. Uh, but it was quite interesting to, to listen to what happened during a residency, uh, with dentists. Um, Dr. Dan, maybe we'll start with you. Um, can you share more about the different steps that you took, uh, when you decided to open your practice? Uh, and what were the biggest challenges that you had to, uh, go through, uh, in the early stage of, of the practice, uh, opening?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think probably the best way for me to answer it and kind of make sure I try not to miss anything is just to give the story and kind of just went to go through exactly what happened. Um, but basically a couple of years plus or minus into being an associate. Uh, I started to get that itch, started to feel like, Hey, you know, I think it's, it's going to be, uh, you know, it's time to start my own practice.

I kind of want that level of fulfillment. I kind of want to be able to say I built something and I think that if I fail, at least I could say that I tried as opposed to regretting later on that I never even attempted to start my own office. And I, I definitely had a level of confidence that, that I could do well.

Um, and I think that that's. Important's a strange word, but like I do think that's a necessary thing. I think that anybody looking to start a practice specifically from scratch, cause that's what my experience is. You gotta have a delusional level of confidence because throughout the entire process, there's going to be so many things.

Suck that you're just gonna be like, oh, yeah, I barely want to do this anyway, so I'm gonna quit. Oh, yeah, that's too much I'm gonna quit and so you have to be So sure they're like there's no world that I don't start this practice to get over a lot of these These humps whereas if you're kind of on the fence, you're like, well, you know, my life's really good as an associate I have nothing to complain about making a buttload of money My, my boss treats me well, the staff is great, but I kind of want to just like, be able to say I started my own practice.

You probably shouldn't do it, I think your life is probably going to be better staying as an associate. But if you feel like there's, there's literally no other option for you other than starting something or building something, I think that's the level of, uh, Grit and confidence that you're going to need to get through the startup process.

And so, um, a combination of a lot of factors, but essentially that was my conclusion for myself that I, it was time to start up. And so I started looking and the first question is going to be location. Um, so I finished residency in Colorado in Aurora, Colorado in 2020. So in July of 2020, I finished my residency, which means we're four months into COVID and so.

The world is kind of going through a lot of stuff. Nobody really knows what's going to happen. Nobody really knows when our dental office is going to be able to open again in full capacity. Are we going to have to deal with a forever world change of PPE, blah, blah, blah. There's just so many factors. And so.

At the time, so in January of 2020, I signed on or I got a job offer from my attendings from my residency to work in their private practice in Colorado Springs, which is about an hour south of where I was. Um, and I was looking at different jobs. I had been interviewing over the past year and throughout 2019 because I wanted to kind of get all of that started.

For myself. And then two months after that, uh, COVID happened. And so I felt fortunate to have the opportunity to work with my current attendings and their private practice, because I knew that they were great guys and I knew there wasn't really too much risk of like them for lulling me. Right. And they, they were going to keep their word that they had a place for me, even though the world was kind of shutting down.

And so I felt very fortunate to have the opportunity. This is as opposed to at the same time, like I was looking at, maybe I leave Colorado, maybe I check out Seattle, maybe I move back, maybe I hit up New York, things like that. Um, but at such an uncertain time, I didn't want to move to another state. With zero connections and maybe not have a job by the time I get there, as well as my wife was already working in Colorado.

And so she already had a job that was stable even through COVID. And so worst case scenario, if I lose my job, at least we have some income. So it was too risky for us to leave Colorado when we already had some stability through an unstable time. And so, um, I decided to take the job in Colorado Springs.

And, um, and so I worked there for a couple of years and then got that itch. Right. So now the conversation was now that I'm decided I'm going to start my own practice now is the opportunity of, Oh, maybe now is the time I leave Colorado. Right. Because before I felt like it was safer to stay. And, and once I plant my flag from a, from building a practice standpoint, like, that's it, like, that's where I'm going to be.

That's where I'm going to raise my family. That's where I'm going to retire and die basically. Um, and so I talked to my wife about it and it's just like, okay, what's This is our last opportunity to figure out, like, do we want to stay in Colorado Springs? And, um, long story short, we were, I was one signature away from moving to Seattle.

Can we say that you didn't watch Tiger King? I did not watch Tiger King. I didn't realize how amazing Oklahoma would have been. So, uh, I was, I was looking at different locations, but yeah, it was one signature away from Seattle. Bank loan approved. Um, uh, I literally just had to sign the lease for the space, uh, but we ended up pulling out mainly from a personal standpoint such that Seattle was just so expensive.

Um, I already owned a house in Colorado. Right. Well, while I was working at private practice, you know, I bought in 2020, the interest rates were low, obviously it was a kind of a crazy time to buy in terms of competition, but we were able to secure a house and stat wise, like bedrooms, bathrooms, square footage, all that, that same house in Seattle at the time was triple the cost.

And I was like, man, I'm going to work my butt off to start a practice just to finally afford a house. The same house I already have and I was like that's I it doesn't seem logical for us that we have friends here Well, you know, we decided against this we pulled out of the Seattle thing and I decided to stay in Colorado Springs So from a location standpoint That's gonna be the first step is if you're looking into building or buying or whatever a practice Like this is gonna be your baby for the long haul So you really should pick a place that you you know Are comfortable and you want to be.

I think that's the most important thing. I think a lot of people are gonna Within reason, but I think a lot of people are gonna be like, well, you know, I, I really want to open a practice somewhere where I can just rake it in and, you know, kill it. Right. But at the same time, you know, it's going to be where you're raising your kids.

It's going to be where your wife has to live. It's going to be where you have to live. Right. It's not all about work. And so location is super important. Now on the opposite side of that, if it's like, well, I want to be in New York city, I want to be in LA. Um, that that's probably, It's tougher to open a practice, uh, just from a saturation standpoint, so, so within reason.

So, um, I decided to Colorado Springs, got the bank to kind of switch the location, got it, had to redo the whole thing and kind of got it re approved, um, and then once we got the bank ready for that, then it just started, came down to talking to real estate agents, or I guess Thank you. Commercial real estate location finder people.

Um, I use the healthcare company called car. Um, they were great They we look through a bunch of different locations and they kind of really helped Ensure that I negotiated or they negotiated well on my behalf to make sure that all the terms were fair between me and the landlord and Compromise on both ways.

For sure. So, so you knew from right off the bat that you wanted to start, you never considered buying an existing practice? Yeah, so I guess, I guess I knew right from the start, mainly because there was nothing available, so it wasn't even an option to buy an existing, because all the existing were not for sale.

So I already, because I already practiced in the area for a couple years, I already kind of knew all the workings and so it was just like, oh, if I wanna start my own, it has to be a start. There's no way selling. Got it.

Partnership isn't, wasn't really an option because it would have to be like being an associate and then working up to partner again So it's just if I wanted to own it was gonna be to start up So we looked at a bunch of spaces found the right space and then you know you got to get all the guys together the equipment vendor the supply vendor the architect the GC the The interior designer all that stuff and so to kind of answer the question like what were like Maybe what was the hardest part about it?

It was Basically coordinating 50 egos, right? You got a bunch of dudes who, you know, are, are the best of the best at what they do. And they know what they need and what they want to get paid and what needs to work from theirs against the other guy who needs to know what he wants, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so it was like, they're like kids, dude, they're like children.

And you're just like, guys, I want to open doors. I'm very good at teeth. I need you to get me from here to here, figure it out. Right. I need you to work on the equipment. I need you to give me the cabinets. I need you to do all these things. And while at the same time of like, I need you to make sure we're working within budget budget.

And so, um, it was definitely a lot of dancing with egos, I think was probably the most annoying part of it. Otherwise it's high stakes wedding planning. You know, it's, it's, it's, everything's expensive. You got a bunch of people to talk to catering, you know, you got the flowers, you got the videographer, you got the photographer.

But if you fail or if you don't do it right, like the bank has, you know, there's a million dollars on the line. Whereas a wedding is like, Oh, maybe it just wasn't as nice of a wedding as you were hoping. Um, so that's probably the hardest thing. I think the front end of it is just setting everything up.

Make sure you're talking to the right people. Make sure you're not forgetting anything. You have a consultant come in and make sure they make sure you're not forgetting anything. And then once your door is open, You have no patience, right? I mean, you've done some grassroots marketing and you may be some patients that followed you, but like, it's not like a full scheduled day one.

And so you've worked your butt off to set up this thing from scratch, which the benefit is, you know, exactly all the layers of the practice. And now it's about getting people in the door. Um, And, and, you know, obviously we'll have Dr. Mark kind of shed some light on the other side where, you know, he day one has patients in the door, but he kind of has to work backwards to figure out how the heck the previous guy built this thing, um, and, and to make sure all the systems are correct.

And so the, The, the start up, the scratch start is all front loaded, in my opinion, um, cause once it's all set up and doors are open, you just have to be, uh, an amazing dentist, which is what you already were, otherwise you wouldn't have had the confidence to, to open the doors. And so, um, I think the main thing was just putting the team together and making sure everybody played nice with each other.

So I think, I think what we have to, sorry, I think what we have to clip out of this is when the pediatric dentist said, it's like working with children, uh, on the contractors. Like, I think that quote right there in itself is enough to highlight this episode. You know, the thing, the thing that going back to Dan, like the two things that you said that like really resonate is like everybody wants to be your best friend when they're going to get a paycheck from you.

Yeah. Like dude, I have never met so many leeches. I, I, I hung up, I hung up on somebody to do like third party payments for like, you know, there's like, there's different like care credit style. Um, one of them was like, Oh, well we partner with an office. I said, no, you're a service. You're not my partner. Like, well, no, we partner.

I'm like, I'm done with you. Sorry. Like I've worked too hard. You're not my partner. I'm paying you. Let's get it right. I don't want, I don't need your nice words. Like it's, it's the leeches thing is, you know, Yeah, I mean, it's, and I, I don't know, I mean, and maybe, maybe it's just the type of dentists we are, right?

Like, we are, we're primary care, we're pediatrics, we're just trying to take care of kids, you know? And then we have all these dudes just trying to Take everything from us when we're just trying to help people and it's just like, dude, like, come on. Before we go, uh, to you, Dr. Mark, maybe one question, uh, Dr.

Dan. From the day you started, you probably had a date you wanted to open. Were you able to open on that date, or how much delay did you have? Like, were you late in the opening, or were you on time? We were late by one week. That's not bad actually, that's pretty good. Yeah, it wasn't bad, and it was just because of the CO, the Certificate of Occupancy.

Um, there was a delay in I think, like, it was something as menial as like, Oh, the cabinets were a week late. You know, they just couldn't get installed. Or the installer was busy, or he was sick, or Something happened, um, I don't remember exactly, but Mainly because the GC, it was something to do with the subs for the GC And so, he just took care of it, and he was just like, Yeah, we just have to delay a week because we're waiting on something.

So, one week delay. Yeah, so basically we opened on time. You know, I opened February 8th instead of February 1, you know. Um, so overall it worked out really well. Um, my GC, you know, he's a, he's a rock star. He, you know, so my situation was a little bit different such that the, The GC is the owner of the building.

And so he's a retired GC, like he just retired pre COVID. Um, but he did not want any other GC touching his buildings. And so he kind of came out of retirement to do my project. Um, and so one, he only had one project to do. Two, he was motivated to get me open because I'm the guy who's gonna pay him rent, right?

And so once he gets me operational, he starts to get, you know, income, right? And so he was definitely motivated and he's also a very renowned GC. Like to him a dental practice is like a hobby. It's a toy, you know, he built prisons and hospitals and you know He was like way stricter things. So dental office was like whatever and so He was really on top of his subs and making them stay on time He was very organized with the whole schedule.

And so him being a week late was upsetting to himself. Um, but, but you know, it is what it is. And so he did great. And so I, I would, I would love to do more projects with him in the future. I'm just not sure he wants to come out of retirement. So we'll, we'll see what that looks like. Unless you're building a prison, maybe that's not right.

Sounds like that seems pretty appealing. Pediatric dentistry and prisons have a lot of crossover. I mean, let's just start talking about prisons and what kind of prisons y'all run. Yeah. Same amount of teeth lost too. Actually, there's a good link with, uh, Tiger Kings as well, by the way. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

So, Dr. Omar, tell us more about your story. You watched Tiger King, you fell in love with Oklahoma, go ahead and tell us more about the challenges of, uh, I mean, the perks and the challenges of acquiring a practice. Man, so kind of like Dan was talking about, thinking of going to Colorado and Seattle, that same decrease in costs going from Colorado to Oklahoma, like we had a condo and built a house and it was roughly, you know, not much more.

Um, so the cost of living. Decreased drastically and just better quality of life for my family. And I knew that's what I wanted. Um, there's some, there's some other services for my, um, for my oldest daughter who has some special needs that Tulsa offered that was pretty unique. Um, another thing that Dan talked on that, um, maybe opened up a lot of doors for me.

That I just want to highlight before I go into my story is that he worked in the area and he knew the market and where he was at before he jumped into ownership. I couldn't stress that enough to somebody. I think it's a pretty bold move to just want to go into an area you don't know and build right away.

I would date the area and date the scene before I would consider about buying. Especially Oklahoma, I found out is a very close knit community. And an outsider coming in, there's a lot of closed doors, but after about three years, it's amazing how many more people just want to talk to me and accept me. Um, and it became more of a community, which is how I came about with the opportunity that I currently have.

So, um, Kind of segwaying into my opportunity. Um, I, I left my DSO on a heated terms and I said, Hey, you guys, it didn't happen, but, um, but I would say that the feelings are pretty strong against each other and my blood still boils when I see them. A lot of bad things don't do DSOs guys. Like it's a great job.

It's not a long term career. Just don't do it. You're going to ruin dentistry. Um, so. I knew I wanted to build an office. I had this vision and I feel very fortunate to be in a career where I can live based on principle over just money. Um, I think we're going to make, we're going to, we're going to be fine financially, but I had a vision of something I wanted to accomplish.

And so I started the process and talked to an architect, I bought a piece of land, started this, started actually going through the process of building a building from scratch. That's how dumb I am. I just went straight for the, straight for the big guns. And I went down this route and of course everybody's like, yeah, we can help you give us 10, 000 You know and it's just like I'm bleeding dry And in the meantime, we got permits we're building Currently this last week.

We've got framing and trusses on the building that I've been building In the meantime, in the last year, two dentists approached me like, Hey, we're getting ready to sell. And there were general dentists that inherited as a pediatric practice, but there's no pediatric dentists really in Tulsa. And so general dentist bought it and now they're getting ready to leave.

And they're like, can we make it pediatric again? Um, and I just looked at it and I've seen some of the, the styles that they were, I mean, basically the training and the changes that I'd have to make. I was like, I don't know if I can do this. It's kind of too big of a beast. And then this dentist, uh, found out he was, he was going to just close the doors.

August 1st, he wasn't even going to sell it. He's like, I'm just closing the doors. Um, and so I talked to him and I was like, I don't know if I can make this work. I'm building a building. And, uh, he's like, I'll give you a sweetheart deal. I'm like, what's a sweetheart deal. Um, and I won't tell you the amount because I think he'd be kind of mad at me if he, if I did, um, but the, the equipment was worth twice as much as what I paid for the office.

And he knew that and so, um, and I was like, well, I can't get another loan from the bank. He's like, I'll self finance it or seller finance it. You just pay me every month. I'm like, oh, what interest rate? I'm not going to charge you interest. We're just going to like, so basically I'm just, I know it was, it was one of those deals where like, well, I'd be dumb not to do it.

Um, and that's how I got into this. But, um, I will say it is nice having, uh, patience on the schedule, but it was a small office. Um, and it moves slow. The biggest message I could say about inheriting an office is you're putting out fires, just constantly putting out fires that you didn't know existed. And I think this is true about.

Um, any office that you acquire, I don't care how prepped you go into it. There's going to be surprises that you're going to run into that you were not expecting. The financials may look sound, they may look cool, but they had done something shifty or move something. I mean, accrual, accrual accounting in itself is like the most sketchy thing I've ever seen.

You can manipulate numbers in so many ways. Um, just, just, just pretend everybody's embezzled from every office and that, um, Just assume you're broke. Even if you have money in your account, um, if you go into it like that, you'll probably be okay, but, um, I think it's really tough to shift the vision and mission of an office.

When they've done it a certain way for so long. So you come in and you're like, I need this product. I need these instruments. And like, well, we've never done that before. Um, and, uh, you know, like we have this outdated server that's dying that we have to switch practice management software. And now I have to teach everybody.

I'm going to you this way. I had to put wifi in the building. That's how outdated it was.

That's awesome. Um, yeah, yeah. So, uh, they're, they're just constantly putting out fires. Um, my biggest saving grace and the thing that I would tell somebody that is looking at acquiring an office is. Find somebody that you can have as an office manager that can be your right hand person, hire them, pay them as much as you can and make it a person that you can communicate as directly as you can, like that you can talk and like everything that's going on in your brain, you can just let it out and they're not going to be offended by it because it's going to help you not be lonely.

Number one, but also the amount of stress that it takes off of you. Like I, it's so worth it. Um, and I was lucky enough to hire. Um, an assistant from the office that I've been working at for this last year, um, to bring on as an office manager. Um, and she, she just actually just started today. We've been talking about it for a little bit and, uh, that right there probably decreased my stress level, cut it in half.

So those are some of the things I look out for and some of the things that have been the biggest help. But, uh, Curious. What are the questions you guys have that I can answer? I think that, I think Mark, sorry, just, I think Mark touched on two really important things, um, that we probably should talk about and it's one, you know, the first thing he's mentioned is like kind of dating that, that area before you kind of start up there, once you kind of know the community, you build the connections, like that is going to directly influence the production of the office, right?

How fast you grow it before you break even. Right. So. That we can talk a lot about for sure. And then the second thing is the staff, right? Mark's talking about hiring and rockstar team. And regardless of whether you're doing a scratch start, whether you're doing an acquisition. The most important thing is your first hire, right?

Like you have this, you got to kind of build this core team because the amount of stress and load that they can take off of you, and especially if you're paying them well, is so worth whatever you can pay them, um, to have somebody that you can rely on, somebody that you can communicate with and somebody that you can trust to help you, you know, take the whole burden is the most important thing.

And so talking about, you know, Networking and marketing and grassroot stuff in the community. I think we should definitely touch on. And the other thing is, is how to, relying on your staff. And, and they, you're literally nothing without them for sure. So, yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's actually the question I kind of wanted to lead into from here.

It's like, And I'm sure a lot of dentists in these positions are thinking like, how do you build your patient base? So whether you're starting from scratch or whether you're inheriting something, you have to grow it either way. Um, and so I guess like Dr. Danford, like, let's hear from you. I'm like, how did you go about building out?

And I know you talked about grassroots, both of you did. Um, so I'd love to hear about like how you guys tackled that. Yeah, um, definitely on multiple fronts, right? You got the simple stuff like SEO. You got simple stuff like Google ads. You got simple stuff like Facebook ads, right? Um, so that's the stuff that everybody knows.

And everybody's like, yeah, you just put, throw some money at it and hope your, your brand gets in front of people and they start calling you. Right. Um, the other thing is, you know, Google reviews are going to be really important, right? People are hesitant if some place has zero reviews. People are hesitant if it only has four reviews.

People start to feel better if it's got ten reviews, twenty reviews, thirty reviews. So like, that interest definitely is exponential because as you get more and more and more and more five star reviews, people are like, Oh, this place is legit. Like, let me try it out. Before, it was like, eh, you know, I'm going to go to this other one that has a hundred five star reviews as opposed to the one that has five five star reviews.

You might be equally good, but because you just started, they're not really sure from a superficial standpoint. Um, and so all that builds over time. So from a market standpoint, it's just, you just got to keep going at it and eventually we'll get there. But other things, um, is going to be networking, right?

It's going to be on one hand, all the time that I had that I wasn't seeing patients. Cause you know, maybe the first day I was seeing two people per day. Um, I was the one going to the GPs. I was the one going to the pediatricians. I was the one shaking hands, and I wanted them to see my face. I was not sending my staff out like, hey, go take donuts to this office.

Hey, go take bundt cakes to this office. It was me and my hand and my face, um, and I think that, That was really important for me because I was able to then communicate as from dentist to dentist and kind of even talking, you know, clinical and ethics and what we're looking for and what we're trying to build to actually communicate that with other dentists as opposed to my staff just saying like, yeah, we do great, you know, and they don't take it uh, the same way as if they're actually talking to me.

And so that was really important. Um, I got involved in the dental community. So I think getting involved in community is probably a good thing and you could do. I just I didn't do that personally, um, but I got involved in a lot of organized dentistry and I know Mark has, uh, recently too, so, um, I was the president of the Colorado Academy of Pediatric Dentistry, I was the Colorado representative of the Southwest Society of Pediatric Dentistry, I'm now going to be onboarded as the secretary treasurer of the Southwest and then eventually, you know, Four years from now I'll be the president of that.

I am the, uh, I'm on the board of communications with the AAPD. Um, I've done a lot of things from an organized dentistry standpoint. Such that one, I can meet more dentists, and they can kind of get to know me more from a what, what my philosophy is and what I'm trying to accomplish with my patients and how I'm trying to take care of the people in Colorado.

Um, so that is great exposure. And then two, you know, having these little titles, these little feathers in your hat, right? That looks good on your bio, right? Um, I went to children's, I was chief resident. I did all this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like it kind of gives a little bit of reputation to you for, for perspective families who are looking at like, well, who, who, what's so special about this young buck that has just started his office.

Right. Um, and what does he know? Right. Other things is I had a kid, right? Mark has a kid. Mark has multiple kids. Mark has a kid with special needs. Like parents are gonna be like, they eat that up. They love that because they know that we. and or are going through the same stuff that they're going through.

Like, my kid doesn't let me brush my teeth. Me neither. I promise you that when you're struggling at home, I'm right there with you, holding my daughter's hands, brushing her teeth, right? Like, it's not something magical, right? It's, we're, we're just humans. And, and we're just like you, and I'm just here to help take care of your family.

Excuse me. So. I think that was, you know, that is stuff that you can do is just really get involved in your community. I did a lot of social media stuff. So a lot of the time that I had, my wife and I would come and shoot a bunch of tick tocks and Instagram reels, um, on the weekends or on the weekdays when we had time.

And that just kind of showed people that we were people. I had people driving four hours from the other side of the state. just to see us. They didn't have insurance, they've been screwed before, and they just wanted to take their child somewhere where they felt like this person's gonna actually help us.

And because they saw my TikTok of me doing some something stupid, they just felt like he's a real guy. And I would, I trust him with my, my Let him do something stupid to my children. Yeah, sure, sure. So, it's uh, they just felt like it was, it felt more genuine, I think. And it was an easy way for me to communicate my personality.

As opposed to just a face and, you know, some dentist who's trying to make a bunch of money. Make a bunch of money. It's humility though. Like, I think everything you hit on is like humility, right? You going out into the community yourself and making those interactions. Yeah. Um, right. And like it is at the end of the day, we're all people and it's that genuine connection that we can make with other people.

That like all brings us together. Right. So I think, and I think in especially today's world where there's a lot of like, I mean, AI aside, but like, there's just a lot of like personas on social media, like people kind of just yearn for realness. And if you're just like a normal person, that's who, that's who they want to, you know, take care of their kids.

Right. It's not, I agree with that. So it's just about showing your personality, communicating to people that you're just here to help. And you know, I promise. And, and then, and then putting proof in the pudding, right? Making sure that your work actually stands and, and things are holding up well over time.

And, and then the reviews come in and things build up. And then every six months, there's another set of recalls and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then it builds slowly from there. So there's nothing where it's like, Oh, do this. And immediately you get 10, 000 patients. You got to build it up for sure. You didn't, you didn't get that stuff, Dan?

Oh, I didn't get the, I didn't get the You just gotta click the box, you just Oh man, dude, oh my gosh. So what about you to come up, like, you actually got a practice that had patience, even if you said it was like a slower practice, like, was it like a given that all the patients would stay with you? I mean, you said earlier, actually, like, Oklahoma is a state that, oh, where you are in Tulsa, like you have to build the relationship.

So, walk us through the different steps of introducing yourself as a new doctor. Did you have patients leave the practice, uh, and even more going from GP, a GP practice to a PEDS practice? Um, walk us through the process. Yeah, well, this one was actually a PEDS practice before, so it stayed PEDS. There's another practice that I I've talked to, but they're a GP.

Yeah. So the, the challenging thing I think for me was being the new face and, uh, knowing that I didn't do things exactly like the previous doctor. Um, I w I would put that out there too, that like, if you're going to join or buy a practice, whether the doctor stays on or not is a pretty big deal. because you need to be seen as the authority figure and having them stay on is not always, it's not always good.

So I specifically liked this one because I knew the doctor was leaving and I didn't have to worry about this mixed power struggle. Um, we did have, there was patients, they were not good about deactivating patients that had outgrown the practice. He didn't kick patients out when they hit like 2021. And so there was a lot of cleanup that I had to do.

Um, and I think some patients there were like 16, 17 and the parents are like, well, he's retiring. So we're going to leave and go on our way. Um, I think getting new patients, doing exactly what Dan said, face to face time with other general, as a pediatric dentist, face to face time with other general dentists.

I would also throw in there like pediatricians and other like referral services where you interact with this pediatric patient population. That is like huge at getting, at getting patients in the door. And I think just showing up and just not being a jerk, man, like not being like a DVAG doctor, like that's, that's really what it is.

Like. It sounds so simple, but it's ridiculous how uncommon it is, right? Yeah, actually I have a question for the two of you as a pediatric dentist. Do you have to appeal more to the kids or to the parents or both? I think that's such a great question. I think that, And these are going to be great for the people listening.

But as an associate, when I was an associate, I did not care about the parents. Like I was there for the kids. I love the kids. I love hanging out with the kids. We're talking about Batman, Spider Man. I was there for the kids. The huge difference of now owning is the parents are my clients, right? The, the kid I have to take care of, of course, but there's been a shift in like, I have to make sure that the parents.

As an associate, I didn't really care if we get, how many new patients we get. Like, I'm just here to do the job, right? And which is, the job is to take care of the kid. And so that's been an interesting shift, but it's been really fun, um, because, and I think I've kind of missed out on this as an associate, but it's really nice building relationships with the families too.

Because as much as I can talk about Spider Man and Bluey and all that, it's also nice to talk to the parents about adult things. Um, so, so it's been great. And, and to answer your question, I mean, you, you honestly have to do both. You have to be great with both parent and child because one, you have to impress the parent, you have to be likable.

And then two, if you're not nice to their kid, like they don't care how nice you were to them. Right. They're just like, okay, that's my kid. Right. So you gotta be really good with the kid. And make the parents like you. So you, you gotta prioritize both and one is not more important than the other. Um, you gotta make sure that everybody's happy.

Yeah, I agree. There's a book, um, by Charles Duhigg about, uh, called Super Communicators. I'd recommend that for anybody that's going to start a practice. You got to be a super communicator because you have to level on so many different things. You need to be relatable, like Dan said, to the dentist that refer to you, to the parents you have to connect with.

They need to trust you. And then the kids need to trust you. Um, and I think that's different for pediatrics, I would say, um, being relatable and just like trying to, if you're not a good person, maybe just be a good person first, like, that's like the step one. And then step two, like, is like being able to communicate that because you could be a great person and a great person.

Clinician, but like, if you're like, I dunno, the, the congeniality of a brick wall, people aren't going to go to you. And I think this all goes to the realness we talked about. Like I know many dentists and I'm sure Mark does too. Terrible clinicians, silver tongue. Killing it. So much money, right? And I know plenty of dentists are like, that's the guy I want to do the work in my mouth, but worst bedside manner.

And it's like, dude, if you just were a little nicer, you'd be so much more successful because your work is so good. And so I think in pediatrics, we, we have to do both, right? Because you gotta be with the kid. You gotta be with relatable to parents and the work has to stand because there's nothing that's going to upset a parent faster than.

messing with their kid, right? If something you did cause their child additional pain, like they're not happy and you're going to lose them fast. And so you gotta be perfect, essentially. By the way, you just gave us some good nuggets here of, like, future topics. Should he be a good doctor and a jerk? Or should he be a bad dentist but very nice?

I think there's option three, I would be a good person and a good dentist. I mean, I'm partial. I'm partial. You can do that, huh? One thing I would say, one thing I would say for people starting up and or acquiring, right? You kind of have this luxury of time in the beginning, right? You're not necessarily yet, right?

Whether you acquired something that they don't weren't aren't working at the pace that you're gonna bring them up to, or you're doing a startup and you don't have the patients in the door yet. You, you, you kind of have the time to spend with every single family and just give everybody White Glove A plus service.

And especially In the world of pediatrics, where it's a volume game, where we're seeing so many patients, right? It might be one family with three kids, which means that we're seeing 70 people per day or 70 kids per day, but it might be 30 families or whatever. Um, the speed at which we have to work is so fast that a lot of families experiences, Hey, you have, your son has eight cavities scheduled with Natalie upfront.

They'll schedule for you for general anesthesia. And parents just like, what, you know, what the heck that you just. You just told me my kidneys would be put to sleep, but for what? For what cavity? I haven't seen them, blah blah blah. In the beginning of a start up or acquisition, it's very important that what is going to separate you from the established practice that has to be working so fast is Hey mom, you know, here are the x rays, here are the eight cavities that I can see, this is why I would recommend treatment, oh this one's really small, this is why we define it as small, I would recommend monitoring this one, this one's bigger, this is why we think it's bigger, these are the treatment options, oh we can do a filling, or we can do a crown, these are the pros and cons, either way, blah blah blah, and parents will just appreciate that.

They'll just appreciate that you took the time. To explain to them what's going on. They weren't, they aren't necessarily doubting these other dentists. Like they'll do it. They, they believe them, but it's just nice. To know for sure, right? I don't know. I that's maybe, and maybe it's my own personality.

Maybe I'm a high maintenance person, but like when I take my car in, like, I don't want them to tell me, Hey, you need new struts and whatever. Like, I would like to know like, Oh, what's a strut. Like what, what's the. What, what am I, what is my car's performance going to improve if I don't fix the strut? Am I just, is my, oh, you're gonna, you're gonna body, you know, your body's, the body of the car's gonna hit the ground.

You're going to bottom out. Oh, that sounds terrible. I should get new struts. Right? Like it's just kind of taking the time to explain why so that I just feel more comfortable pursuing treatment. And so. Um, and especially in the news where you hear a bunch of overtreatment and things like that, parents definitely have a little bit of a guarded, you know, uh, perspective.

And so just giving people basic respect, I think as, as ridiculous and simple as that sounds is so important for a startup. And it's, it's bad that it even has to be said because it really should just be the standard. I would say it's important for an acquisition. I would buy intraoral cameras too, because they're, they're I'm coming from an office where the guy is like, I'm going to watch it.

And there's a gaping hole. Um, and so I'm having a talk and I'm spending the time to talk. And I would say by interoral cameras for every chair, hands down, whether it's a startup or acquisition, if you want to build trust, that's a simple way to do it. It's cheap and inexpensive. So it's easy and you don't need anything fancy.

Get Archie's intro. Yeah. Because you went for an acquisition, there was a previous doctor. That doctor probably retiring, I would say older, um, meaning the way you practice dentistry might be different. The way you present treatment would be different. Uh, how was that going for you? Like, basically, like, going through that transition explaining to your patient that you are not the same dentist as the previous one.

Uh, anything that you have noticed, or like, sometimes you had objections from patients who were like, But the previous dentist didn't tell me that my kid had a cavity here. Why you, Dr. Mark, you are saying there is a cavity? Yeah, you know, I knew that I was gonna walk into that. I would say one of my strengths is that I'm really good at explaining things to parents.

Um, and plus, look at this face. It's like, moms love this face. Like, this guy's gotta be trusting. Um, no, but I, I think, I think when you show x rays and you can clinically show them what's going on, and I give them options, and I say, hey, like, yeah, you could watch it, but these are the things that are gonna happen.

Like, I'm here to help you. And I don't force it on them, but I haven't had a single, um, I haven't had a single, um, parent that's been like, This is crazy. This is absurd. What I have had, is I've had a lot of parents say to me like, Yeah, we were kind of wondering about that. I'm so glad you brought that up.

And I had the hard conversation talking about, Hey, we might have to do anesthesia. You might have to do sedation. Um, I also offer some more like oral sedation and IV sedation in office that, that gave us an in betweens and I haven't had any backlash. Um, but I think the communication thing is a huge thing.

What was that something you would consider? Like when you buy your practice, like the type of dentistry, the type of dentist that you buy the practice from, like, are you aligning the way you practice dentistry? Would that be a concern if you are not? Similarly, like insurances, would you care about what type of insurance they were accepting before versus like fee for service or not?

Were those things that you consider? I've taken all that and take consideration, which I mean, that's really why I wanted to start my own office. I have a very strong vision of what I want. Another good book recommendation, which I actually got from Dr. Dan's mentor, Dr. Call Jeff call, who is awesome. The infinite game by Simon Sinek before you start an office and know what you want to do.

Read that book and write down your vision. 100 percent do that before you go anywhere with it. Um, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do and exactly who I wanted to be. And that's the vision I had. The challenge I had was there's no office that matches that. Um, this other GP office that I may have an opportunity to buy into, their vision was not the same.

How they practiced was not the same. And they wanted to keep working for three or four years. And I said, you know what? I can't match your style with what I'm doing. This isn't going to work. And this dentist, the way he practiced, the insurances he accepted, all that did not line up, but he was leaving and the price was great.

And so I said, you know what? I can sacrifice a little bit and make my vision come happen because I'm going to be the only voice that's speaking here. Um, And I know that there's a lot of changes. Not all the staff have been on board with it so far. And I think there's, there's going to be some ups and downs with it, but I will say that, um, you can work, there's nothing's ever going to be perfect.

Um, it's like dating, man. Like. Um, don't tell my wife I said this cause she's obviously perfect, but, uh, you know, like there's a lot of people don't get married because they're like, I'm looking for the perfect girl. She's gotta be beautiful. She can't have 0 percent crazy. Um, she like works full time. She's also an amazing mom.

Um, she like, you know, like all the, like, like all these things are like that, like it doesn't exist. But what I am looking for is like, Hey, it's not perfect, but can we go the same direction together? Together. Like, can we overcome these things to make sure that we're going in the right direction? I can drop insurances.

I can do that. But there's one direction, and I think that's, that's, that can be a challenge. So, um, coming in, this is a mostly like Medicaid office with a few insurances. I've kept that. I've only got a network with a couple insurances. Um, But I'm now the only voice and it's been nice. I would say that's the way to do it.

The other caveat is if, if you could get in with an amazing doctor, that's going to be an amazing mentor. And you can join and partner. That's an amazing option. And if you can't, I would recommend everybody also have a really good mentor and work under a really good mentor before you consider owning, because, um, there's, you don't know what you don't know, and you're going to get your butt handed to you, like, 15 times over, um, but having somebody that you've seen do the right thing for the right reason, um, is truly, it's eye opening because you're like, yeah, that's what dentistry can be.

Um, if you, if you don't have that, find that first and have that person in your life. Um, and a caveat, if, if your vision is just money, like, I'm sorry, like you're probably never going to be happy. You're probably never going to be happy regardless of what you do. I'm just going to throw that out there.

Dentistry is not the best way to make money. Mark is touching on so many things. I mean, we have infinite things to talk about, right? This is, this is, you know, something we, unfortunately we can't just capture all in one podcast, but, um, we're pretty hard to do. I mean, I think, uh, I think we would love to, for sure.

I think that one of the things that we can take away from what Mark is saying is that there is a personality type of people that should be owners. And one of it is when I mentioned before, you just got to have this delusional confidence and there's like no other way that you'll do anything. You have to own, have to own, have to own.

Yeah. It's when you're gonna run into these issues where it's like, Oh, I can acquire this one, uh, but I don't really like this about it, Uh, uh, but, but, but, and you can be like, yeah, nah, yeah, nah, yeah, nah. Whereas Mark's the type of guy who's like, you know, I can make this work. Like, I know it's not perfect, but I'm gonna make it work.

Because, The people with the mindset of I'm going to make it work are the people who should be owners because the people who are going to be stuck in analysis paralysis and they're like, it has to be perfect before I do it. Just stay an associate because being an owner, there's going to be so much crap that you're going to have to deal with.

It's never going to be perfect. And if you're not the type of person to be like, Hey, I'm going to make a decision and I'm going to reap the rewards of that decision, or I'm going to take all the consequences of that decision. But what I value is I'm the guy in the position to make that decision. Those are the guys or gals who should be, uh, owners.

And so that Reddy showcased at Mark, right? He's, he's like, yeah, I'm going to do it. Oh, I'm building this thing. I already have a million dollar bank loan plus. Oh, I'm going to buy this practice too. This is crazy. This is not ideal, but I'm going to do it. Right. And those are the guys and girls who are going to be the ones who are going to own the, cause you just, you just got to do it.

You just got to do it. Delusion. You got this 10 years. You look back and you're going to be amazing, but you just got to go. You just got to do it. I think Dan, Dr. Dan, I think you're the first dentist I've talked to that's done a start of it that has ever said you have the luxury of time. And I think you really captured the silver lining.

I think a lot of people would look at that and be like my burn rate. Oh shit. I need to make money. Um, I need to, I need to get right set up. But you, you extracted a really cool. Interesting piece to that is that like you have the ability to spend more time with the patients. Um, and to spend more time inundating yourself within the business to really understand it.

Um, and I think that that again, as you speak about mindset, that's one thing that you're, you're looking at, like how. Are all of these different areas and opportunities that I have, how can I maximize on each one of those? And I think that that's a really unique mindset. And I, I, you know, I would definitely say to people, like, think about that.

Think about what, you know, we, we hear a lot. And I think we talked about this in one of our other episodes about complaining and bitching, but like when you have a vision, like Dr. Mark mentioned, and you stick to it and you keep going, like you're maniacal about going down that path and, and constantly pressing on with it.

And finding these silver linings, like you learn so much in doing that. And, um, I think that's super commendable. And I think it's, it was just, for me, it was a point in what you guys both said, that was worth kind of, you know, throwing an exclamation point on. I mean, you can't complain. I mean, there's no way out, dude.

It's sink or swim, baby. Like the bank is going to, the bank owns you, right? Like if you start up. Don't look at downtime as like, Oh, I'm just sitting here twiddling my thumbs. Make it an up, make the best out of it. Go market, go workout systems, go train your staff, do something because the bank does not care, man.

They're going to come for their money. So there, I can't believe anybody would sit there and be like, Oh, what was me? What was me? Dude, make it work. Come on. Two, two, two stories. Uh, one, I actually ran into my banker, lives in my, it's, Tulsa is like the smallest big town. And she's like, did you open another office?

I'm like, maybe? And, she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, Does it matter? She's like, I didn't hear you. I don't, I don't know what's going on. Don't tell my bosses. And I was like, yeah, that's right. Like, what are you going to do about it? I'm making money without you. Um, so that's, that's funny story. As long as you pay them, dude, like it's all good.

Right. They just want, but they're going to come for their money. Okay. Here's another thing. Like, dude, banks, they're so difficult, man. Like go with one. That's like easy. I'm not going to tell you who I went with, but like, go with one. That's going to have, like, that's not going to try to like, Grind you for everything, man.

It's, it's impossible to work with some of these people, but that's not what I could just comment about. Um, what I did want to say is a time. It's not just the time you have once the practice opens, but the time you have before to set up your systems. Like I would encourage you to be deep in thought. Like I thought I had all this time and I've been working with just an awesome dentist the last year, um, in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, John Lindblom, give him a shout out.

Cause. He is like my mentor. He is an awesome, awesome dentist and a good person. Um, and we just sit and wax philosophical about like the best way to do things and making systems and then this happened and I have like less than six weeks to get all the systems going. And suddenly I'm like, yeah, what was I doing?

Why don't I write this down? Um, so I'd say if you're going to build an office, pretend that you're going to open that office in a month and get all the systems, just put it on a piece of paper, work all that ahead of time so that you have this written down so that your vision can come, come forth.

Because otherwise, like you're just going to be floundering. I was saying an acquisition is really tough because you may know how you want done. And then you may see how they're doing it. And as easy as it is to say, Hey, just do this. Um, I have had to say the same thing probably 20, 000 times to try to shift like one aspect of our systems.

And that's what you inherit with an acquisition. You inherit systems that are so ingrained with people that, um, I mean, it's, it's a huge challenge and, uh, never assume that an office is running well, just because they're seeing patients, it does not mean that they've been running well, um, or that they have systems systems in place.

I think you would be amazed. How many offices would finish retiring, don't have handbooks, don't have systems, don't have job roles. Um, and don't even have like basic consent forms and legal forms. Like that was what has been shocking to me. And this is not just one office. I would say I've seen this in multiple offices.

So take advantage of the time you have. And put a fire under you to get some of this tedious HR stuff done so that you can focus on marketing and those simple things and training accurately. If things are already written down. You know, Dr. Mark, I love what you're saying here. Um, And I have seen it with many dental practice, many staff members, sometimes without Chiwi here.

I have been doing this for 20 years. And I always say it's not because you are doing the same thing for 20 years that you are good at it, and that it's optimized. And so, uh, personally, I mean, again, my wife who started the practice from scratch, That was our worry, buying a practice where you have staff who will tell you like, I've been doing this, it's working, and you come in and you're like, no, it's not working.

We can actually make it much better if we put a system in place. Like you said, I think having the right system, the right processes, while it might sound cumbersome at first, it actually brings efficiency and actually removes all of those tasks that can be like so inefficient. And yet, yes, if you repeat yourself 20, over 20 years, you might think you are good.

You might think you are fast. But no, actually you are actually the problem and so Uh, it's great to hear that in some way that's what you have experienced But it looks like you're also able to make the change. It's just you have to be committed to make the change if I Summarize what you are saying Yeah.

I think the path of least resistance, I think a lot of people, they acquire practices and they fall into this, uh, well, just keep doing it, just keep doing it and they never make the hard decision. Um, because it is really hard. It's a lot harder to change a system than it is to start a system fresh from scratch.

You can get people to buy into something new, but getting to change how they do something. Like if I told you like, Hey. I want you always now to put on your left sock and then your left shoe and then put on your right sock but then tie your left shoe and then tie your right shoe. Like, how many times are you going to have to do that before you, it becomes automatic?

So, you're asking assistance to now, everything that they thought was automatic, you're saying, no, I want you to do it this way. And now they're having to do a ton of thought. It's not subconscious anymore. They have to put a ton of thought into it. Their stress levels go up, they start making mistakes everywhere, and they just want to relapse back into that system every time.

So you as the provider have to slow down and say, no, like I need you to do it this way. Let's stop. Let's slow it down. I need you to do like, even if it takes you five times longer, I need you to do this the right way and just keep doing it until you get it right. And that's unfortunately the hard road that you have to take with an acquisition.

Before we make acquisitions seem like the worst way to go, okay? Cause I don't think so. It's pros and cons both ways. Like, here's Mark, you know, his complaint and concern and struggle is getting these, changing systems, right? But he also had this opportunity to buy a cash flowing practice for to what I had to pay to start up from the ground, right?

And so it's, it's, it's going to be come down to opportunity. So the people watching is like, should I start up? Should I acquire depends on what the market you're looking at and what's available, because if there is some sweetheart deal for you and all you got to deal with is. Convincing somebody to put their left shoe on first, do it.

But if it's something where there is nothing to acquire and, or the things to acquire are going to be really expensive and you got to convince them to put their left shoe on first, start your own. Right. And so it's, there's, there's gonna, there's pros and cons both ways. I got to. Handpick my staff from the beginning.

I didn't have to retrain people because they were just starting from scratch, but I didn't have patients in the door day one, you know, like, like that, Mark's got a reset people, but during that reset, he's still able to see patients and have income. And so pros and cons both ways. Um, they're both great, great options.

And like I mentioned, I don't even know if we mentioned it before we started recording, but if I was in Mark's shoes, Mark's shoes. And that deal came in front of me. I would have also taken it no matter how crazy starting two offices in one at one time seems that that's a no brainer, right? That's a great acquisition scenario.

Right. And so it's, it's whatever opportunities, whatever door opens. So I think if we have to summarize, because I think we are arriving short on time, but one, watch Netflix, Tiger King, find a good location, date your location, so you can actually like, learn the market. Don't marry it right away, just date it for a little bit.

Yeah, and it's, marry the location, not Joe Exotic. That's, that's the other thing. Don't make that mistake, okay? There we go. So basically, learn about the location, find if it's the right fit for you. Because actually, like you said, Dr. Dan, early on, it's a commitment, right? Your practice, you will probably have it for the next 10, 20, maybe even more years.

And so it's not actually a job where you can say, tomorrow I'm going to move to a different city, different state. So then after look at the opportunities, it's not like all black or white, depending on where you start. Opportunities matter. And it seems like that's a big one for the two of you, uh, in terms of what should I do?

I think one thing we haven't touched on, which is probably one of the most important factors is, uh, your partner or your spouse, right? If you're single and you're ready to start a practice, like you could do whatever you want, right? Like you're good to go. Right. Uh, if you're married, if you're dating somebody, you kind of have to consider What they're thinking to, right?

Uh, Mark and I are both fortunate to have partners who are very supportive, right? Um, Mark has multiple kids. He's, he's been kind of. Job hopping for a few years and his wife Ariel is just going for the ride And she's making sure that everything's okay at home so that he can kind of get all this thing right for his family, right?

My wife she's been the sole provider for the past year and a half, right? I haven't And to, to, I mean, if I was single and or had a wife that wasn't working, who the heck is supporting us? Right? If we don't have an income, we, we had a bunch of money, a bunch of money saved up. We burned through all of that.

She's working. And so, you know, we're kind of staying afloat. Um, but. Really, if you're going to take this dive into practice ownership, it is such a time sink commitment that you kind of have to make sure that your partner understands what they are also about to get into with you, because, um, the last, like, what's the point of, you know, building an empire and having a bunch of money if If you don't even, if you're now divorced and your kids don't talk to you.

Right. And so, um, a huge part about like, Oh, should I own my practice also comes down to like, well, is your family ready for you to own a practice or do your kids need you, or does your wife need you? Or do you just need to take a paycheck and go home? Right. Um, and that's a huge factor that I think that only.

Each person can answer individually. I wish. Actually, that's one that I've witnessed myself. It's, it's a big commitment and a huge difference gap between being an associate where you do your nine to five job and being a practice owner where you have to manage staff, manage all the bills and everything that goes around running a business.

Um, and that's one that I have actually, I mean, after meeting with many dances to have gone from being an associate to a practice owner, some of them regret it. They are like, actually, my life was easier when I was an associate. Sometimes they were making three more when they were on associates. And so it's not for everyone.

But I agree with you, by the way, having your spot. Fully on board and supportive is extremely important for sure. Yeah, awesome. No, well, I think, I mean, this was honestly awesome to have the two of you and hear your perspective. Uh, you actually get some good ideas on future episodes that we can do and we probably want to have you both actually.

Absolutely. I think we could talk about a lot of things for sure. Yeah, we like talking. That's what makes us pediatrics! We have to distract the patient. We tell stories while we're, we're fixing teeth, you know? The kid's not just sitting there, you know? We gotta tell him about that time the monkey went to the circus.

We, we, we thank you both, uh, for your time. We'll probably have you for, for another episode and we'll make sure that the books that you have recommended are also listed for people, uh, who should, uh, read them because they were actually, uh, amazing recommendation. Uh, so thank you, Dr. Dan. Thank you, Dr. Mark for being with us today to discuss should you buy or start your practice?

Yeah. But regardless of what you do, she should, she should use Archie. Oh yeah, 100 percent that, man. 100 percent that. Man, how much did you pay these guys before we got on this damn thing, dude? I forgot to pay them. Alright, bye. R2 it is for today. Thanks guys. Thank you, thank you.